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New EU Laws and the impact on our passion

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Comments

  • PikeyPikey Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    Poschl is a direct sales network . They sell loads because they ve always hit the streets to sell their stuff .
    I suspect their market position is down to decades of pre-internet Sale or Return and commercial travellers .  

    I m fairly certain I never had Poschl as a UK youth in the early 80s ...possibly saw it 'uptown' around 1985/6 in the swank tobacconists ? 
  • I think (might be completely wrong) that Poschl carries a similar dominance on the continent that JH Wilson always did in the local newsagents over here. Now that everywhere has the ridiculous shutters up to stop kids taking up smoking 8-| it's hard to know if any of them carry any without specifically asking - and it seems too rude to ask them, them spend a few mins rooting around looking, and then walk away without buying anything, because they only stock bloody menthols ~X(
  • RoderickRoderick Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    Registration is 120GBP x flavour x size in year one and 65GBP x flavour x size thereafter. 

    For Toque the amount we would have to pay adding all our flavours and the ones we make for other people comes to:

    Toque 2.4 million GBP in year one and 1.2 million GBP every year thereafter.

    Poschl only has to pay 33,600 Euros in year one and 18,200 Euros thereafter.

    Marlboro only has to pay 3,360 Euros in year one and 1,820 Euros thereafter.

    As much as I suspect corruption, I actually think it's more likely incompetence on the EU officials who worked out the registration fee.




  • Don't worry we won't be paying it!
  • 2.4 million?!?!?! Even the EU isn't that inept.

    The only reason for adopting that pricing model is to intentionally narrow the range of options - which is mainly covered by the small producers. I include cigars and pipe tobacco in that too.
  • Hear, Hear! Well said, mate =D>
  • @lunecat  As per @50ft_trad  Hear, Hear and well said.

    I try to use smaller and local businesses where possible but as for the free market - I think it is too late. Big business and governments have virtually destroyed any free market by allowing large, established businesses to bully and destroy smaller businesses and then use their dominant market position to treat their customers with complete contempt.

  • 2.4M GBP! Clearly, Poschl, RJ Reynolds, and Hedges had a lobbyist or 12, craft this law.
  • PikeyPikey Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    No ,I don't think that is correct . Poschl got into some trouble directly contacting German government before the TPD came into force . I believe they were just as unsuspecting as the rest of us .

    There is no doubt there is powerful lobbying groups from amongst big tobacco , there is no doubt that there has been security service levels of corruption  in the lead up to this 'law' . I do not think snuffmakers had many supporters in Europe , whereas ecig groups had been preparing for years .

    In my opinion snuff is just collatoral damage in an ongoing process designed to extract local tobacco taxes in a global market  .

    Did you know there is a market research company , about 15 years old , that goes round the world emptying rubbish bins to assess the illicit (ie nontaxed) consumption of tobacco products ? They pick up dogends on the street too :D  They ve done 850 studies in 70 countries over the last 15 years . That is how much governments care about tobacco tax ...and Big Tobacco enable it with this 'independent' market research company . They want the tax ..but they re losing it .

    Wars have been fought on tobacco tax , wars have been fought over it too :D . I would argue that Australia is the  testing ground for the new world orders tobacco 'control' policies . A cynic might suggest that this 'compliance' register serves 2 purposes . 

    First it seeks control the access to the tobacco business ...with registers and fees and red tape . They hope to concentrate the business into a few major , easy to tax , compliant players . As it stands the UK revenue must be losing a chunk to 'dutyfree' , another chunk to counterfeiters , another chunk to whole leaf users  and loads of chunks to the vapers :D They want it back . 

    Second it is simply a Doomsday book for future taxation . A cynic might  expect a 60% tax on all tobacco products in the near future , including ecigarette hardware . 
  • Wow, that is a terrible state of affairs.  

    For cosmetics, the registration is free if you do it yourself online, but the recipe has to be approved by a certified chemist.  These chemists can of course offer deal like "main recipe with 8 slight (colour, scent) variations for x?" which at least gives some room.  That is the same for P&G as it is for "Grandma's Old Fashioned Skin Creams", except that the big corps will have their own in house chemists so they can churn out endless products with little impact.

    This way with snuff is maddeningly negative for the small manufacturers with a larger range.

    Can they at least keep the core elements and monitor interest in the other products, licensing them as and when there would be enough interest to make it viable?

    Also, if just 10 people got together and wanted product x in size y, could they pay their supplier a 12 gbp premium to have access to it?  Makes it much more expensive, but would still be available.  If 100 people wanted it, then it is of course just a 1.2gbp premium for that particular snuff in that particular size.  

    Far from ideal, but is one way to stop your favourite snuffs from dying forever.
  • Ok maybe the EU is corrupt and this is a prime example. I naively hoped it was just a mistake.
  • The rabbithole goes pretty deep with the TPD . It's as bent as a ninebob note http://www.tobaccotactics.org/index.php?title=TPD:_Burglaries . That is spy level stuff .
  • Picky, Can you put that link up again as I can't get it to work?
  • Everything you do comes back to you! Respect Life, Share Peace, Live NOW!
  • I've got it. I would love to see some more recent evidence of TPD corruption.
  • PikeyPikey Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    You re probably safer not knowing @Roderick . :D Then you wont find your own office ransacked one morning :).

    I m not given to conspiracy theories but I have been following this one for a long time . In my opinion , the fix is in ....and has been in for a long time . We just get to affect the details . :(

    I dunno if you follow the UK ecigarette advocacy sphere Roderick ? There is a fair bit of crossover interest in the output of ECITA, the NNA and other independent advocates . Once I learn to do links that work :D , I can put up TPD related titbits if you d like? 
  • RoderickRoderick Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    Please do. I have a reward running of 1,000 GBP for anyone who can prove to our Govt. that it was a corrupt fix against snuff. I should also point out that from the feedback I have received I think they, our Govt., already know but, documentation would really help.
  • What a confusing bunch of rules! On my end, as consumer, it has motivated me to buy snuff in quantities I rarely ever have. For example, I recently went berserk worrying that I'd never be able to get SG Black Rappee, and in consequence of that, I found a 1lb tub of it, and London Brown, from snuff.me.uk. And Wilsons, I've bought huge amounts of snuffs I hardly ever used before. Oh, and 400 g of various Toques! The upshot is that I have bought far more than I ever have in a short period of time. Do I feel like an idiot? Yep, but I'm thrilled in a weird, snuff addict kind of way...I have enough to last me for several years if the shit hit the fan. But after reading everything that people wrote on this page, I can finally relax and get back to worrying about the economy, terrorists "flooding into" the U.S., and other assorted things.
  • @Roderick I doubt very much that they'd be sloppy enough to have generated any kind of hard copy documents anywhere to incriminate themselves with, but I'd certainly be willing to build/write you a cunningly and carefully written "case file" demonstrating how badly things are purposefully loaded against you. If you want me to look at doing any "projects" for you, you've got my contact details ;)
  • Wait, I thought she just "wiped it, like, with a rag" ;;)
  • LiamLiam Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    I am a little confused...and upset of course; my main driver was wos chocolate orange, devastated by the loss...not sure how i will cope.To make things worse I cant even order from wos what little is left anymore, seems its only uk shipping now. I decided to go through the EU regulation...but it seems to me that snuff is clearly stated as "exent" from this new legislation, mainly because its a niche market. Has someone looked into it? Did I miss out something?


    I found that "COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) 2016/779 of 18 May 2016" that can be downloaded from the EU official journal simply enforces a previous legislation named
    "DIRECTIVE 2014/40/EU OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
    of 3 April 2014"  (can also be found on the EU official journal). Within this document it clearly says that the regulations are for "cigarettes and roll-your-own tobacco". The document differentiates between "smokeless" and smoking tobacco and defines: 
    (5)
  • LiamLiam Member
    edited February 2017 PM

    Not sure why I cant seem to finish my post O_o
  • LiamLiam Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    5)
  • RoderickRoderick Member
    edited February 2017 PM
    Hi Liam,
    It's symbols. Certain symbols have to be removed before you paste or write.
  • This is the killer blow for all EU snuff producers, importers and even retailers if they are selling a non-registered snuff. The consultation has taken place and we are told 120gbp year one and 65gbp all years after multiplied by every size and every flavour.

    Fees

    There will be an annual fee set which will be applicable to all notified tobacco products. This fee is set to cover the cost of the competent authority function, as described by the EU Commission. A consultation on the fees will take place shortly and a link to that consultation will be sent to you at this address once this is available.

  • If the recent immigrants flooding the EU take up snuffing, the policy will be reversed in short order.
  • mrmanos Well it's hard to go wrong with SG Black Rappee (which was my first snuff) and London Brown
  • @roderick Oh I see..but I did not use any special characters...well anyway, the point is; I read the eu regulation and I could not pin point anything that nailed nasal snuff as affected by this new regulations. Does anyone know exactly what does? Are we all sure there is no over panicking and someone has misread? I even found this statement:
    "12. Tobacco products other than cigarettes and roll-your-own tobacco shall be exempted from the prohibitions laid down in paragraphs 1 and 7" that state the following:
    1. Member States shall prohibit the placing on the market of tobacco products with a characterising flavour.
    7. Member States shall prohibit the placing on the market of tobacco products containing flavourings
  • ps: if the issue is the fee 120 pounds a year means that it would only take a up-mark of 0.50 p on all snuff to recover cost (provided you sell at least 240 in a year per each size for the first year to recuperate fully the cost, and 0.25 the following years). And that is a pretty aggressive approach, +0.25 or less should be feasible if you sell more. 
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