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New EU Laws and the impact on our passion

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Comments

  • @Liam the cost to Toque is 120gbp for each individual product, and each individial size sold. Take Toque Raspberry for example you would have 5g and 10g Silver Dollar, 10 and 25g tins, the bullet, and each 50, 100, 200 and 400g bulk bags. Just for Toque Raspberry you have 1,080gbp. Then you have all the different flavors not to mention Toque USA.
  • @anon True but that would be irrelevant because you would implement the price increase across lines and sizes. This would mean that Toque raspberry would cost 5g tin +0.25 10 g +025  etc...Main problem would be the first year as you would have to fork out the price upfront before recuperating. Thats probably why WOS has cut a lot of flavors so it can invest on what they considered main drivers in sales...either way it still sucks=/ just trying to see the "bright" side, its not all loom and gloom, options are available.
  • Liam,
    The EU want 2.8 million pounds in year one. We don't sell 280,000 pounds in Europe. There is no bright side.
  • This situation in some ways is reminiscent of the demise of The Lancashire Watch Company in Prescot, Lancashire, England.

    They tried to please everyone at the same. 

    This was in the days when key wind watches were still being made, and the Swiss watch industry was hammering at our door.

    The Prescot factory produced a huge range of watch movements, using machines and a lot of skilled hand work. 

     Key wind and button wind watches.    Movement qualities from basic working men's through intermediate models and ultimately top of the range for wealthy customers.  These were complimented with silver or gold cases, open faced pocket watches, half hunter and full hunter cases, again in a host of different qualities.

    If you think of the possible number of combinations of watch movements, cases and styles that could be permutated from the choices available, and were produced, by the factory in a hope of pleasing everyone, it is no wonder they went under.


    You have got to take a lesson from the past and cut down the number of options.

    Thereby cutting down costs.

    If the charge is being applied to each size of product made available, cut it down to three options,

    a reasonable sampler size, a respectable 25 gram and a bulk option.

    Just two or three instead of offering five or six package sizes of the one product.  

    The same applies to flavours/tastes. 

    But for the life of me I cannot see why certain classics have been dropped and some bar room joke/novelty flavours have survived.

    These are bad times for manufacturers and consumers, with difficult choices to be made in the board rooms.

    I hope you can learn from the past and keep a decent range of products but with a reduced range of sizes.

    Cheers.


  • Exactly - if you offer a certain flavour in 5 sizes and sell hardly any of any size in Europe, then don't sell that in Europe.  If you sell one particular size of that flavour well but not the other sizes, register that size.  It's far from ideal, but rather than seeing it as that total number for the entire range, I am sure that there are flavour/size combinations where it is a clear fact that they should be registered and then others where it is clear that they shouldn't be.

    The ones that fall in between could be an issue - working out at which point a certain combination is selling well enough to make it worthwhile.  While that is all very harsh on the few people who like their 10g in a silver dollar rather than a tap box or so on, but that is much better than totally closing down in Europe because registering each and every combination is too much.

    For the record, I think that the registration set up is woefully badly thought out!  There are many instances where legislation has been enacted without thinking through all of the possible consequences.  
  • Thanks guys, but this is about human rights. We have the right to choose what we buy and why should our choice be limited by big brother. We are not robots, we are human beings with the rights and freedoms that go with that. 

    An accountant will tell you cutting back to the basic best selling lines is good, but accountants make the worst businessmen.  Alternatively if you look at what happened to all our wine shops. They rationalised their stock, cut it back to the best sellers and promptly went bankrupt. Customers love choice and we want to give it to them.
  • Indeed - as I said, I think the registration is badly thought out.  From reading and re-reading the text of the legislation I can't see how snuff can even be considered to be included, too.  

    But my point being that, in the worst of the worst cases, it's not "we can't sell any snuff in Europe" rather "we can now only sell a restricted range in Europe" so the customers can at least still get something.
  • @Effy The problem is that would mean a retailer has to be 100% up to date at all times as to which products have been registered in which countries, in which size containers, and know for certain that they are up to date with their annual fees. Also, which areas have decided to curtail distance selling. Which stock can be sold to which countries to comply with labelling requirements, or any other subsequent restrictions. Blah blah blah blah......

    It's simply not realistic for retailers to work on this basis. As a result, retailers will either not bother because it's simply not worth the hassle, or they'll ignore the rules and argue about them later. I really don't blame the ones who have decided it's more hassle than it's worth and now refuse to ship across borders.
  • That IS true,  @50ft_trad  - a shame, a (insert expletive) shame.  I got back in to snuff at the wrong time in the wrong place.

    That said, I AM next to the Swiss border, so if the suppliers can keep it coming to Switzerland, there is hope!
  • Virtually all of my snuff is bought over the internet or by telephone.

    But.

    Oh for the days when you could walk into a tobacconists and ask for an ounce of snuff straight from the bulk jar on the shelf.  How would the rules affect a lady or gent walking into a shop these days and asking for an ounce to go straight from the spoon and into their own snuff box?  That's if you could find someone retailing like that nowadays.

    My grandmother used to sell it in her shop that way, straight into your own snuff box or served in a twist of paper.

    Happy Days

    It would be a puzzler for the powers that be.



  • Actually, registering "loose" or "to order" would be a damn fine way of collating the registration fees for a range of packaging sizes. Not sure if that would pass scrutiny, but it would certainly be worth a try
  • ArtChooArtChoo Member
    edited February 2017 PM

    I wonder if    "one tin size fits all " could be a worker for artisan snuff makers.

    It is doubtful that bijou snuff makers use expensive automatic filling machines. 

     One tin size but with whatever quantity of snuff you require .

    Just like buying coffee beans and such like in a delicatessen, one size paper bag with anything from a few ounces to a pound.



  • Does anyone have the WoS list of snuffs that didn't survive the EU regs?
  • @Afterglow Here's the full list I compiled....

    Snuffs lost in 2016/17

    Bernard ~ Gekachelter Virginie
    Bernard ~ Alkoholfrei
    Frederick Tranters ~ Beau Nash
    Frederick Tranters ~ Brunswick
    Frederick Tranters ~ Citrus
    Frederick Tranters ~ Cotswold
    Frederick Tranters ~ Country Doctor
    Frederick Tranters ~ Finistaire
    Frederick Tranters ~ Hobsons Choice
    Frederick Tranters ~ Dr Johnson
    Frederick Tranters ~ Light Mint
    Frederick Tranters ~ Otto De Rose
    Frederick Tranters ~ Regency
    Frederick Tranters ~ 29 Special
    Frederick Tranters ~ Medicated Extra Menthol
    Frederick Tranters ~ Best SP
    Frederick Tranters ~ Wallflower
    Frederick Tranters ~ Menthol
    Frederick Tranters ~ Carnation
    Frederick Tranters ~ Jockey Club
    Frederick Tranters ~ IHT No 22
    Frederick Tranters ~ Princes
    Fribourg and Treyer ~ Kendal Brown
    Fribourg and Treyer ~ Morocco
    Fribourg and Treyer ~ Bureau
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Almond
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Aniseed
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Ambassador
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Carnation
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Cherry
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Cinnamon
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Dry Orange
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ English Rose
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Eucalyptus
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Fleurette
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Jasmine
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Jockey Club
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Lakeland
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Mitchells
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ M4X
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Peppermint
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Sandalwood
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Sea Breezes
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Spartan
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Strawberry
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Tia Maria
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Wallflower
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Western Glory
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Whisky
    Gawith Hoggarth ~ Wild Mint
    Molens de Kralingse ~ A/P
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Bon Bon
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Brasil
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Brasil with Kashubian sauce
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Choco
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Chococreme
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Chocomint
    Molens de Kralingse ~ FCV250
    Molens de Kralingse ~ FCV400
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Gingerbread
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Hollandse
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Hollandse Bolongaro
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Limburger Tabak
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Macouba
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Mentholin
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Mettaijer
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Mississippi
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Musino Tabak
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Oranje
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Peppermunt
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Pot Pourri No 1
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Pot Pourri No 2
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Prins Regent
    Molens de Kralingse ~ Son de Tonca
    Molens de Kralingse ~ St Omer No 1
    Old Mill ~ Alpine
    Old Mill ~ Antebellum
    Old Mill ~ Arabesque
    Old Mill ~ Bananas Foster
    Old Mill ~ Black Ice
    Old Mill ~ Black Velvet
    Old Mill ~ Buttered Rum Toddy
    Old Mill ~ Butternut
    Old Mill ~ Calypso
    Old Mill ~ Commonwealth
    Old Mill ~ Cupids Crest
    Old Mill ~ Equinox
    Old Mill ~ Fire and Ice
    Old Mill ~ Javelin
    Old Mill ~ Kind of Blue
    Old Mill ~ Lambic
    Old Mill ~ Marlin Spike
    Old Mill ~ Mint Juliep
    Old Mill ~ Moulin Rouge
    Old Mill ~ Nocturne
    Old Mill ~ Perfecto
    Old Mill ~ Pure Virginia Toast
    Old Mill ~ Sasparilla
    Old Mill ~ Spotted Dick
    Old Mill ~ Suzette
    Old Mill ~ Winter Solstice
    Samuel Gawith ~ Almond
    Samuel Gawith ~ Aniseed
    Samuel Gawith ~ Apple
    Samuel Gawith ~ Auld Sannick
    Samuel Gawith ~ Banana
    Samuel Gawith ~ Blue Crest
    Samuel Gawith ~ Blue Crest Scented
    Samuel Gawith ~ Bouquet
    Samuel Gawith ~ Bucks Fizz
    Samuel Gawith ~ Carnation
    Samuel Gawith ~ CCC
    Samuel Gawith ~ Celtic Talisman
    Samuel Gawith ~ Cherry
    Samuel Gawith ~ Cob Gold
    Samuel Gawith ~ Cola
    Samuel Gawith ~ Cuckoo
    Samuel Gawith ~ Dr Vereys
    Samuel Gawith ~ Dr Vereys Full
    Samuel Gawith ~ Hazlenut
    Samuel Gawith ~ Honey
    Samuel Gawith ~ Irish D
    Samuel Gawith ~ Ginger
    Samuel Gawith ~ Grousemoor
    Samuel Gawith ~ Guarana
    Samuel Gawith ~ Jasmin
    Samuel Gawith ~ Jockey Club
    Samuel Gawith ~ KB Plain
    Samuel Gawith ~ KB Scented
    Samuel Gawith ~ KB Special
    Samuel Gawith ~ Lavender Dark
    Samuel Gawith ~ Lavender Gold
    Samuel Gawith ~ London Brown
    Samuel Gawith ~ Mandarin
    Samuel Gawith ~ Mellowmint
    Samuel Gawith ~ Mentholene
    Samuel Gawith ~ Otterhound
    Samuel Gawith ~ Peach
    Samuel Gawith ~ Peppermint Dark
    Samuel Gawith ~ Peppermint Gold
    Samuel Gawith ~ Pine Menthol
    Samuel Gawith ~ Plum
    Samuel Gawith ~ Princes
    Samuel Gawith ~ Princes Gold
    Samuel Gawith ~ Red Crest
    Samuel Gawith ~ Red Crest Scented
    Samuel Gawith ~ Richt Kind
    Samuel Gawith ~ Sam's Own
    Samuel Gawith ~ Scotch Black
    Samuel Gawith ~ SG Extra Menthol
    Samuel Gawith ~ Silky Dark
    Samuel Gawith ~ SP No.1
    Samuel Gawith ~ SP No1 High Mill
    Samuel Gawith ~ Spearmint Gold
    Samuel Gawith ~ Special M
    Samuel Gawith ~ Strawberry
    Samuel Gawith ~ Toffee
    Samuel Gawith ~ Wallflower
    Samuel Gawith ~ Wild Duck
    Samuel Gawith ~ X Blend
    Samuel Gawith ~ Yellow Crest
    Samuel Gawith ~ Yellow Crest Scented
    Samuel Gawith ~ Zip Camphorated
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Apple
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Apple and Blackberry
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Blueberry
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Brandy
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Brunswick
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Bubble Gum
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Burgundy
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Butterscotch
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Carnation
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Chilli Chocolate
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Chocolate
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Chocolate Mint
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Chocolate Orange
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Cinnamon
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Clove
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Coconut
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Coffee Cream
    UWilsons of Sharrow ~ Cola
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Confusion
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Cool Guarana
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Country Mint
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Extra Crumbs of Comfort
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ French Carrotte
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Ginger
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Irish Coffee
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Irish HDT 20
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Jasmine
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Kendal Brown
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Lavender
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Morlaix
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Natural
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Peach Melba
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Peppermint
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Prime Minister
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Rosemary
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Royal George
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Rum and Blackberry
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Rum and Raisin
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Sherry
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ SM 500
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ SM Brown
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ SP Silver
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Spearmint Plus
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Strasbourg
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Strawberry
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Summer Berries
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Thyme and Lemon
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Vanilla
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Violet
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Whisky
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Whisky and Honey
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Winter Warmer
    Wilsons of Sharrow ~ Ylang Ylang

    Yet to be confirmed (under discussion)

    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Mature Crumbled
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Particular
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Keen Scented
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Jocks Choice
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Convent Rose
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Rumba
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Citrus Delight
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Emerald Mocha
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ SP Best
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Princes Dark
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Kendal Brown
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Top Mill
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Cafe Royal
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ King George
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Convent Golden
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Special Menthol
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Sandalwood
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Strawberry
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Cinnamon
    Mullins and Westley/Convent ~ Attar of Roses


  • What a &$@%ing nightmare! Will Brexit reverse any of those for UK manufacturers?
  • Sadly no. The EU aimed at eLiquid and hit snuff. The EU officials don't want to lose face so won't back down. 

    The UK Govt. might try to be a little more accommodating however, shipping to other EU countries is virtually impossible and the snuff companies are now on borrowed time. I guess most snuff companies will be gone in the next few years and smoking deaths will start to rise again.
  • Yes, unfortunately I cannot see any government ever relaxing legislation on any tobacco product. It can only ever get worse, not better.

    If pipe tobacco ceases to be available in a few years, so be it. I don't smoke enough to be overly concerned. I just hope my decade long buffer stock of snuff keeps as well in glass as everyone professes, as it will need to survive for ten years PLUS however long the UK snuffs keeps being available.
  • Whoever clicked the like button for that list above should reconsider that action and retract it.
    Or maybe it's one of our members here that works for the EU government that likes the list!?
  • smmsmm Member
    Well, perhaps it'll inject some life into the American snuff market.  And... Indian snuff?
  • That list is very useful though, nothing to be happy about, but still useful....
    Everything you do comes back to you! Respect Life, Share Peace, Live NOW!
  • RoderickRoderick Member
    edited March 2017 PM
    I have it copied but, I don't have all of those snuffs in my Library. I have some of them but if I am to make copies can everyone email me if they have any full tins of these snuffs. I will pay full price for any tins and postage. I am determined not to let them die.
  • @Roderick Is expanding operations to America out of the question for Toque?
  • With the last few rounds of regulations over there, I can't see that being any easier. Not to mention every state having their own different set of rules.
  • Here's an off-kilter and vague suggestion, but UNESCO and to some extent the EU are keen on preserving 'cultural heritage'. Given snuff's predominantly historical associations now and deep roots in European and British culture, this might be an angle worth looking at: even if other forms of tobacco are regulated, snuff should be preserved as a part of a 400-year tradition, not persecuted!

    Mind you, it would take a lawyer or two, and some money ....
  • Interesting thought, but the government's with FAR more resources, would argue that they aren't threatening snuff, merely regulating it's production and sale for health concerns (verification that no unsuitable ingredients are used for example).

    I think Wilson's (for example) might have a case to get the old waterwheel mill protected as a historical monument/museum, but I can't see UNESCO or National Heritage or any similar organisation taking steps to ensure viability of business activities or product lines.
  • EffyEffy Member
    Is that list confirmed as lines which are ending, or are ranges in there which are going to be renamed?
  • @Effy They are the products which have been discontinued.
  • EffyEffy Member
    Then it really is sad reading ;(
  • Roderick, do you think Jaap would share his recapys with you?
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