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OSP meets the Feds

HitsuzenHitsuzen Administrator, Moderator
Sorry, guys. It was fun while it lasted.

Comments

  • jmahesjmahes Member
    Man I'm very sorry to hear this. Without getting into our governmental flaws, this is too bad. I do appreciate your work and dedication, and also your artistry with tobacco.
  • @Hitsuzen wow sorry to hear that. As if the snuff world has been hit hard enough over the past year, thank you for your efforts. I never did get a chance to order some osp, but I'm sure it will be talked about enough in the future. I had a pinch of OM Tennessee Toast with your video.
  • Chris, sorry to hear they pissed on your bonfire. I never got to partake in any of your offerings for various reasons, but aside from the snuff itself, you opened up a lot of thinking and awareness of snuff and what goes into it. It would have been great if you managed to get it to a fully fledged supplier status, but I have to salute you in taking steps to keep your family safe. They are rightly first priority.

    I hope you remain a part of the snuff community, and maybe opportunities will arrive in future for you to resurrect the project in some way without falling foul of legislation. Don't be too downhearted mate. Family comes first. Thank you for your efforts in increasing awareness of snuff and what goes into producing it.

    Best wishes for the future.
  • Sorry I couldn't support your craft Chris, I am sure it was amazing, from what I read.  I pliff the tobacco nazi's   
    My knowledge is worthless if not shared and applied . "Joseph McKenna"  
  • CobguyCobguy Member

    Really sorry to hear this, Chris.  Best wishes to you and your family.


  • matteobmatteob Member
    edited June 21 PM
    I have not tried your snuff but I am always amazed at the hounding of little guys by bureaucracy. You would think they have bigger fish to fry...an easy target I guess. I would love to try your last hurrah but I am in the UK and don't want to land you in the shit again. As for your mentioning that ex troops who served their country are turfed out on the street with nothing that is beyond outrageous...
  • I was not aware of your brand, but am sad to hear your story. I was glad to hear you got out of the stuff you were in trouble with before. I was never making, but i know six months of use was bad enough. having a family is not worth giving up just to say fuck the feds, you are so right. I will be eagerly waiting for a post about your final huzzah, keep us updated so perhaps those of us unlucky enough to not have tried your snuff will be able too. I am looking forward to supporting your cause for tobacco for the troops. Also, did i hear you mention Rockford? I'm just a 'little' south of you if so, just north of Springfield. 

    just try and keep your head up 
    :)
  • I swear people hurting no one get the worst harassment from our omnipotent moral busybodies in federal and state offices. Growing some tobacco next year to make my own. Guess it'll be ALL my own. Sucks, because I love sharing stuff I make. I suppose I'll have to be content to just share home fermented sauerkraut and pickles. Good on you putting your family first, because the feds almost seem to delight in destroying human beings and the human spirit.
  • bobbob Member
    I am surprised it took this long to be honest. I always wondered if thee smaller producers did their due "diligence" in protecting their business or just left their asses hanging out in the wind. If it's fair or not sometimes isn't the issue. Sometimes the issue is what's happening and what risks are you willing to take.
  • matteobmatteob Member
    edited June 25 PM
    Well Johnny has at SWWI have been in touch with him and he is very clued up. IToque seems to be in breach ot the "characteristic flavour" regs too but is carrying on. It is based on a Directive so it is down to individual governments to legislate and enforce and I guess some are more diligent than others. I am talking about the Euro regs here. They are quite succinct albeit vague and badly drafted. The US Deeming Regs run to 500 pages...crazy.

  • matteobmatteob Member
    edited June 28 PM
    The only thing i can suggest is for Chris to pass his recipes on...The only artisan snuff I have tried is Sir Johnny's.
  • @matteob, Cris already shared all his recipies, that was the whole open source thing. 
  • matteobmatteob Member
    oh well someone to pick up the baton then...
  • OSP was the perfect grind for my nose!  Bastards!!!
  • matteobmatteob Member
    edited June 28 PM
    Maybe get in touch with Johnny Scott or Roderick to see if they can try to replicate. Both seem to like developing snuff ranges. I totally get what you are saying about Chris adding the magic touch though. No Chef can completely replicate anothers fine recipe.It does seem a tad heavy handed of the feds :( I sadly have not had the opportunity to try this snuff.
  • HitsuzenHitsuzen Administrator, Moderator
    Thanks to everyone for the kind words and condolences. Sorry I'm just now getting back on, it's been a busy summer so far, especially with picking up extra hours at work. @bob I knew it was coming, but honestly was hoping to getting more time. OSP kind of blew up over night, and got bigger way faster than I was anticipating. I would love to have been able to license everything proper, but it would have cost close to a million just to get things started, with no guarantee that the FDA would have approved any of my applications. It's impossible now in the United States for anyone to start a new tobacco brand- which is why the addendum of the '07 TCA, along with the handing over of jurisdiction to the FDA, was in my opinion crafted to benefit Big Tobacco. I never made a cent from my efforts, so it technically wasn't a business. In fact, I lost close to two grand.

    @50ft_trad I'll be keeping the blog up, though obviously it won't be updated. Sharing information was the primary goal, and I hope you're right about it starting a trend. My eventual goal was to use OSP to fund a separate community where people can share tips, recipes, ideas, and information pertaining specifically to home tobacco production, be it snuff, pipe tobacco, cigars, whatever. I thought about starting a thread or even a category here, but while that would be cool, it would only reach us, when I know many people across various platforms share the same passion. I think we would all benefit from getting into home production, and with information scattered in pieces all around the interwebs, it would just make sense to create one common place. This wouldn't be to discourage people from buying other products, either. In fact, after my experiences, I have a deeper appreciation than I did before for what goes into a pinch, and have been revisiting old snuffs with a new outlook.

    @matteob Open Source, in scripting, is a philosophy, and one I stand behind completely. I didn't choose the name OSP lightly. The recipes are completely open to the public, to be used however one wishes. They may not translate perfectly for large production, but I'm sure someone like @Roderick could figure it out. Hell, I'd be honored if there was a Toque OSP interpretation. Everything there is to be doing can be found at http://ospsnuffblog.wordpress.com and I am always open to answer questions or share the ideas I never got to put to work.

    Eventide is close to finished, and I've made a last minute decision with it that I think everyone will be pleased with. More information to come.
  • matteobmatteob Member
    I echo all you have said. Was the order that you sent abroad and got picked up a large one @hitsuzen? I am surprized the overseas customs notified the feds if it was just a tin or so. Someone told me you did not ship abroad anyway. Oh well I would have loved to have tried your stuff but I have only recently started getting into snuff so missed the boat...same with Molens.
  • HitsuzenHitsuzen Administrator, Moderator
    edited July 1 PM
    @matteob Not incredibly large, but large enough. I think the issue was that I marked it as "propietary samples". Paul was correct in that I generally didn't ship abroad, but I made exceptions from time to time for people I already knew. The person I shipped to this time, I'm positive, had nothing at all to do with it.
  • bobbob Member
    This might sound crazy but a million for starting certain types of businesses isn't uncommon. It's not hard to have to spend that money to start a restaurant. I think the difference isn't big business versus smaller business as much as an labor of love versus profiteering. I guess the economy or whatever just is getting worse and worse for the self made man. Reading what you said to @50_trad about funding a separate community made me think about food. I've seen people get into the same problems with making food they sell on a small scale. Health codes and all that, and having to adhere to regulations that don't always seem to be well thought out. Yet a club or organization can feed it's members without really following any regulations. For example all of our trades are legal as far as I understand and I can make tobacco products and give them to friends. I know when I looked into it years ago it seemed like there where ways that might put you in a non-commercial category (I doubt it's still like that). I guess that's what lawyers are for.
  • On that footing, the only avenue that I can think you could try would be challenging the definition of sample - with it not being a gifted sample of something that was for sale otherwise. Almost certainly not worth the expense of finding out though, besides which I am utterly clueless about the legal systems over there, so please take this with a BIG pinch of salt :)

    Chris, I know there was a lot of discussion when the Euro TPD fiasco happened about what the initial registration fees and subsequent annual fees are for each product. The biggest hurdle seemed to be the number of products previously being offered, which is why so many product lines were culled. What are they like stateside? Would it be viable at some point in the future for someone to register one blend, then use the funds raised from selling that to fund the next registration, and so on ....?
  • matteobmatteob Member
    edited July 2 PM
    @50ft_trad is that why ranges have been cut? I am surprised Wilsons cut their line but Roderick seems to be expanding. Plus they changed their flavour names to get around the "characterizing flavour" rule but another well known UK brand still names flavours? I still don't get these regs or how they get away with it. Even Johnny is calling Creme de Figue Cri de Fi now :/ The deeming regs stateside seem to be even worse. They run to 500 pages. I have read the Euro regs but gave up on the US ones.

  • @Hitsuzen Best of luck to you. I hope my video came across ok. It really is a huge loss and I hope that one of the bigger snuff manufactures will pick it up and give you some percentages. 
  • HitsuzenHitsuzen Administrator, Moderator
    @yisraeldov Thank you, Brother. The video was wonderful. I was buying the whole time!

    @bob Yes, it can cost close to a million to open a resteraunt, but because of the new classification system there are big differences, functionally. For example, bread, bacon, lettuce, and tomato are already FDA approved. The sandwich is not required to be. If I go to Subway and order a BLT with no lettuce, they don't have to get that specific sandwich licensed as a new product, because the ingredients have already been approved. Likewise, if the manager of that Subway resteraunt decides to shove his tomatoes from a different, yet still FDA approved source, it's still considered the same sandwich. With tobacco products, this deviates. If, for example, the salt brand I use (which is FDA approved and licensed) were to go out of business, and I switched to a different, also licensed, brand for the exact same grade of Kosher Salt, it now becomes a new product, requiring a different license. Same with packaging. With all commercial whole leaf tobacco, it is all crowd sourced, making the legitimate licensing impossible, unless you own the farms it's grown on. Even then, each years crop technically has a new chemical profile. PM, RJR, and BAT are mostly exempted on the "Grandfather" clause. To go further, if I wanted to open a Subway franchise, I could apply for a loan from a bank to do so, for a myriad of reasons that don't apply to a small tobacco business. If I were to walk in a bank and ask for a loan for OSP, they would first ask if I hold the proper licenses. If i explained that the loan would be for the strict purpose of obtaining the licenses, they would ask if I meet the criteria for licensing, which I would not be able to answer honestly. The new criteria for FDA approval on tobacco products has not been disclosed. Any other product line, be it food or beauty products, has a clear set of guidelines to be met. Tobacco does too, but it has never been disclosed to the public, so they can legally deny my applications, after I've already paid my fees, with no reason given. Swedish Match tested this, and had exactly those results. Showing now that there are stark differences between food and tobacco in the eyes of the FDA (and there are more, I'm just getting long winded), can you give me a scenario where a small operation has any chance of establishing itself in the new field?

    I absolutely agree with you on all points regarding starting a community. As soon as the summer starts slowing down, I'll gauge interest. If there are enough people in the snuff, cigar, and pipe tobacco communities interested in a forum dedicated specifically to home production, I'll start a GoFundMe or something. If we can raise enough to put down two years of server fees, I'll donate my time to build the forum. I think it would be a cool thing to explore.

    @50ft_trad The new addendum almost mirrors TPD. It's a coordinated effort, I believe.
  • @Hitsuzen What did you buy the whole time ? ( Do  I get commission ? )

    Also 2 years of server fees should be next to nothing.If you are just running a forum I can donate some space that I have on a shared hosting server. 
  • HitsuzenHitsuzen Administrator, Moderator
    @yisraeldov That would be amazing! I could establish mirrors out of the UK and here on the east coast, which would be almost free. I could donate a sacrificial front node, in case something was interrupted.
  • @Hitsuzen. I think that might be a bit of over kill, and remember I'm talking about shared hosting, so nothing super powerful in the first place ( server sits in the US ) 
  • EffyEffy Member
    In that case, people can support the blog and you can just give people snuff - totally unconditionally.  It's not even samples, it's just giving people snuff.  Their donations aren't for snuff, but for the blog etc.  

    I imagine, though, that the thought of getting hit up again will make you cautious with that idea, but it might be worth exploring.
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