GUTKHA

KortKant

Anyone had it? I know I'm the guy always griping about health, and this product is by no means safe. However, while I am trying to quit smoking, I consider anything on the table that isnt a cig. And the areca nut is actually the 4th most used substance in the world, how weird is that?

SnuffMonkey

I never used traditional Gutkha, but I have used fresh Areca nut with slaked lime and fresh betel leaf. It was good but not something I wanted as a habit. There is a Micronesian community in town and can get all of the items here in town if you know where to look. A coworker turned me on to it. He would put part of a cigarette in with it or a wad of dip, but I would use snus while chewing it. Good but not great.

rostanf

@kortkant I would advise against gutka use. Maybe try it but don't use it. We already know tobacco is carcinogenic and areca nut is also besides it's other deleterious health effects. Here's an article detailing how gutka spit is eating away at the iron of a bridge. And the Wikipedia link for areca nut.
https://m.telegraphindia.com/states/west-bengal/spit-eats-into-base-of-bridge-landmark-lifeline-across-hooghly-chewed-up-by-gutkha/cid/1271407

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areca_nut

KortKant

I too got some fresh areca nut, lime, and betel leaves. I cant remember what tobacco I was using. I think maybe nicorette once, then I had found snuff by the second try. That all pales in comparison to gutkha. I dont know if its because of the proper balance of all the ingredients, or the fact that the tobacco is absorbed simultaneously, but its a far better experience. Also, the chewing, and the stinging, its like a better type of dip. I have become partial to the more 'active' oral tobaccos like chew, which require some work to release sometimes. I suppose the grimacing involved with working the dip appeals to my angry side. I dont plan to use it, and I liked the way you phrased that. However, it is one of those things that I'm possibly going to be a bit delusional about, due to addictive tendencies, because it does feel pretty great. And im struggling with the cigarettes, which is the whole reason I found snuff and got here in the first place

KortKant

Just an update, this stuff seems really BAD. But its just so GOOD. I dont plan on getting more. After I finish this pack of course.

Its interesting, with arecoline being a truly genuine and novel stimulant(at least to me) I wonder why there exists such a thing as nicotine gum but not arecoline? I've certainly read that it's implicated in cancer and the oral fibrosis, but people are still debating on the extent of nicotine's damage, and they've had the gum for decades. I dont get it. I personally dont believe nicotine is dangerous, at least not as much as this stuff. Although how bad would just the chemical be without lime and all the added stuff remains to be seen, at least I think.

volunge

Despite being curious about that shady side of areca, I'll skip trying gutka for the sake of my teeth.

The sting sounds familiar. If you tried makla, is gutka comparable to it sting-wise?

And did you actually feel any effects other than those of free nicotine (which can be quite astounding), @KortKant?

KortKant

I havent tried makla, though its on my list. However, my main concern with this product is the lime. I would point to that being the issue before areca, or at least paving a way for both areca and tobacco to be more dangerous. And yes, there is a profound effect. I've chewed areca on its own, with betel leaf and lime, and it is the same effect. Its a great effect. Its interesting, I could try and describe it with some combination of any other mild stimulants, but it wouldnt quite tell you.

Actually, it isnt all that mild, especially when its combined with the tobacco, and no prior tobacco has been used, it is so blissful. I crave waking up and taking it almost more than I did a cigarette. It is so much more intense, and with all the weird saffron flavoring its crazy. It feels pretty cool. But it also feels sickening in a way, like taking small amounts of ecstasy or cocaine continuously. And the jones is just like that of a cigarette, maybe worse.

There is another product from this RMD Manikchand group(which is like the Marlboro of this stuff, found it all out from the Indian store owner) called pan masala, which has the little areca crumbs dusted with whatever and no tobacco. But really, I'd say if you do it, get both in the mixture simultaneously and just hold off on any snuff. That being said, my nicotine tolerance is much higher than arecoline and whatever else, so I can find myself craving and using snuff carefully after 20 or so minutes, yet if I redose very much gutka I start to feel too much stress and vasoconstriction

It's just plain addictive and bad. But I love it

volunge

Thanks @KortKant! That's all interesting.

Slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) is a common ingredient of many smokeless tobacco products, used as alkalizer by some German, British, Belgian and Indian STP manufacturers.

KortKant

I understand that it is in those products, to free more nicotine, and this makes them stronger. However, it is caustic to the mouth, and im not sure that it is healthy in those products either. I find that gutka gives the same mouth feel as when I prepared my own quids, except I didnt know what I was doing and had a few chemical burns. Well, Im here to tell you that simply leaving this stuff in too long can result in much the same thing. I would envision using makla like a dip, and maybe I'm too anxious to squeeze the stuff against my gums, but I cant imagine that being healthy long term. I agree that areca itself could be largely to blame for health concerns, but I also believe that a tobacco-only product with no lime is far safer than one with it.

No, like I said I'm merely experiementing, but gutka at least has the advantage of having a whole new drug in it. I cant imagine messing with lime beyond trying this or that a few times, because I'm trying to be healthier, not have a habit that still concerns me. I would settle for snus or dip. And snuff of course

volunge

I tried low-pH lime-free pseudomakla once (La Pris, German product made for French market). I could not find any data on hazardous constituents of that particular product, but one thing for sure, I didn't find it addictive at all. Lacking in nicotine, burn and taste it was. I mean, I didn't feel the urge of getting myself another can of that stuff and hardly finished the one I had.

And yes, the main reason I stopped using makla regularly was it's caustic nature. I still enjoy it, but only on a rare occassion and with moderation.

KortKant

So what is it about American dip, and snus for that matter, that allows them to absorb effectively? Simply sodium bicarbonate? Are these products just weaker as a whole? I agree that they are weaker than gutka, but thats not a very good control.

volunge

It's sodium carbonate (soda ash, Na2CO3) in snus. Shouldn't be underrated, it's fairly strong alkalizer.

https://www.aqion.de/site/191 (pH of common acids and bases).

pH of regular snus is app. 8.5. Never noticed any other damage to mucous membrane with continuous daily use at that pH level, apart from the "snus pocket". pH of strong nasal snuff can exceed 10, makla is around 11.

There's a direct correlation between pH and bioavailable (free-based) nicotine. At pH 8.5 roughly 50% of total nicotine is converted into a free-base form. pH 10 gives app. 99%. Higher pH facilitates the speed of absorbtion.

Suprisingly, despite containing slaked lime, gutka pH is low, ranging from 5.2 to 8. At least of the samples tested in these studies: http://www.jorr.org/article.asp?issn=2249-4987;year=2017;volume=9;issue=1;spage=21;epage=24;aulast=Hegde , https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259699625_Toxicity_of_Gutkha_a_Smokeless_Tobacco_Product_Gone_Global_Is_There_More_to_the_Toxicity_than_Nicotine

Another interesting read: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mzIy1RhM5WQJ:www.ijocrweb.com/pdf/2014/October-December/9199_Original%20Article.pdf+&cd=13&hl=lt&ct=clnk&gl=lv

And some details here: http://www.indianjcancer.com/article.asp?issn=0019-509X;year=2012;volume=49;issue=4;spage=364;epage=372;aulast=Bhisey

KortKant

Gutka delivers nicotine and all tobacco goodness no doubt. However, that isnt the selling point for me; it doesnt require the nicotine absorption of makla to deliver its own brand of kick. Its really about the whole experience of the areca with the tobacco. Like I said, its better when I need a nic hit simultaneously, but it would never be my comfortable, relaxing, trusted, plain ol tobacco.

Now, somewhere in there is something about it that helps me stay off the cigs. It has 'reassured' me in some ways that sometimes snuff doesnt even touch. But it does feel like developing a new addiction. In fact, I came here to say I just caved and bought another box.

It now no longer has the strength of effect it once did, not like taking 'small amount of cocaine or ecstasy' ha, but it is definitely more pronounced than caffeine or nicotine. Likely this is due to me not having used it for decades like the others. I've settled in to craving it once every two hours, similar to when I first started smoking. Which is interesting because arecoline is supposed to have a half life longer than that of nicotine, yet even a good snuff only makes a small difference in craving after awhile.

KortKant

UPDATE: This stuff is highly addictive and seems to be pretty awful on the mouth. I let myself go with terrible habits all the time but this one had to be off the table.

Been stopped about a month now. Still think about it all the time.

Maybe the rare occasion and moderation rule might work for this one, but I'll keep it at arms length for now.

Still though, I cant say it wasnt worth it